Turbo or not to Turbo?

Old 01-10-2011, 05:21 AM
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Turbo or not to Turbo?

Hey everyone i bought a turbo,oil feed line, and piping yesterday. i got it all for a really good price and i know i still need alot but before i start im just trying to figure out is it worth all the money im gonna need to put into this?
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:11 AM
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It's all up to you really. I personally would love to have a boosted S.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:21 AM
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There is no such thing as an inexpensive turbo setup on an S. If you're trying to figure out if it's worth the money, you've already answered your question.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:23 AM
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Not going to be worth it.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:38 AM
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I don't know squat about turbos... but if you have already bought the turbo and most of the parts, it's mostly paid for right? Sounds like you have a lot of sunk costs already (unless you plan on selling all the stuff you already bought).

How much to finish what you've started?
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by specialk View Post
There is no such thing as an inexpensive turbo setup on an S. If you're trying to figure out if it's worth the money, you've already answered your question.
That is sage advice. Ignore it at you own peril.

The S2000 motor is not really a good turbo candidate. It's already highly stressed, producing as much as 120 hp per liter. To get that power one of the things Honda did was to run high compression. Turbos also create high cylinder pressures so turbo engine builders usually run between 8:1 and 9:1 compression. The S comes from the factory with 11:1.

The only way to keep a boosted S alive on pump gas is to retard the timing to reduce cylinder pressures under boost. This takes special engine management. The extra air from the turbo needs more fuel to keep the air/fuel mix correct (CRITICAL in a boosted engine). This takes larger fuel injectors and, again, special engine management.

So for starters you have only begun down an expensive and time consuming road. Once you have purchased all of the parts they have to be installed and set up correctly. You won't be able to do it and I can guarantee that any shop you walk into won't approve of half of the parts you've bought. If it's a good shop they will insist on replacing half of the stuff you just picked up. If they're willing to just bolt a turbo swap meet to your engine they're just taking your money. It will never work properly.

The final straw is that there is always the chance that trying to get 200 hp/liter out of your motor will break something. If replacing the engine is going to be a problem for your budget you shouldn't even start this.

I personally would want at least $10k laying around that I was really sick of looking at before I started contemplating a turbo'ed S2000.
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by backusstudio View Post
I personally would want at least $10k laying around that I was really sick of looking at before I started contemplating a turbo'ed S2000.
then i would take the $10k and the S and trade it in on a straight line horse-power machine like a poon-stang or kay-mary-oh and avoid all that head and heart ache. iff'n it ain't broke, don't be fixin' it!

jus' a word to da wise. sage advice. ignore it at you own peril.

oh, an i ain't never got sick'a looking at $10,000...and no, i'm not greedy.

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Last edited by bbcricketta; 01-10-2011 at 08:57 AM. Reason: snowed in, bored and got the cabin fever and it ain't the s2000 cabin...
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bbcricketta View Post
oh, an i ain't never got sick'a looking at $10,000...and no, i'm not greedy.
Me either. I'll use a larger sarcasm trowel next time.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by backusstudio View Post
That is sage advice. Ignore it at you own peril.

The S2000 motor is not really a good turbo candidate.
phenomenal write up bro. more things in the engine, more things to go wrong is the way i look at it.

man i was eating at islands yesterday with some friends and in roll a couple of vw bugs, w/ turbo!!! i had never been one to pay attn but i can't believe they stuck a turbo in that thing but then again nissan just stuck a turbo in their juke.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:36 AM
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The pancake 4 VW guys are the worst. They will sink a fortune into an engine that gives them constant trouble, needs continual twiddling and still only makes around 200 hp. It's a sickness.

300 hp turbo pancake? Pull the pin and step well back.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by backusstudio View Post
That is sage advice. Ignore it at you own peril.

The S2000 motor is not really a good turbo candidate. It's already highly stressed, producing as much as 120 hp per liter. To get that power one of the things Honda did was to run high compression. Turbos also create high cylinder pressures so turbo engine builders usually run between 8:1 and 9:1 compression. The S comes from the factory with 11:1.

The only way to keep a boosted S alive on pump gas is to retard the timing to reduce cylinder pressures under boost. This takes special engine management. The extra air from the turbo needs more fuel to keep the air/fuel mix correct (CRITICAL in a boosted engine). This takes larger fuel injectors and, again, special engine management.

So for starters you have only begun down an expensive and time consuming road. Once you have purchased all of the parts they have to be installed and set up correctly. You won't be able to do it and I can guarantee that any shop you walk into won't approve of half of the parts you've bought. If it's a good shop they will insist on replacing half of the stuff you just picked up. If they're willing to just bolt a turbo swap meet to your engine they're just taking your money. It will never work properly.

The final straw is that there is always the chance that trying to get 200 hp/liter out of your motor will break something. If replacing the engine is going to be a problem for your budget you shouldn't even start this.

I personally would want at least $10k laying around that I was really sick of looking at before I started contemplating a turbo'ed S2000.
All of this info isnt exactly correct in my opinion. The engine is an excellent choice to turbo. Yes high compression but compression isnt the only think that determines how reliable and how much power a engine can make with boost. Alot goes into it like the efficiency of the head and intake the quench area and the materials used in the motor. The s2000 just happens to be excellent as far as all that goes. As far as retarding timing yes you need to in certain situations as you do with all motors. Actually if I remember correctly comptech didnt even change timing on their kit and vortech pulled very minimal timing.

Its my opinion that this motor can be a great boosted dd at 350-400 whp as long as you use quality parts and have evans tune it .

I only said earlier that its not worth it because if you ask that question then no its not.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:25 AM
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:35 AM
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The K20 and K22 are good strong motors. But on top of the compression issue, and the waste of money issue, there's one more very good point about slapping a turbo on these puppies.

With the high revving nature of these engines and the VTEC 'kick' it can make the S a handful in corners. We all know about the car's tendency to break the rear end loose suddenly. If you've ever had VTEC kick in one of the three lower gears while cornering hard you know it's not the best idea.

Turbo heads (I've not only known a few, I've been one) would say that a turbo 'compliments' the S2000 power curve. In other words a turbo makes it's power in the same way, at the top end. I say that a turbo aggravates the S power curve, making more power where it is not really needed and doing very little down lower in the rpm range where it is.

Most people don't think that the power delivery of an engine affects the car's handling. I believe that it does. Trying to come out of a corner with a motor that is coming up on VTEC and turbo boost at the same time is not going to be the party you might expect. Add in short wheelbase, 50/50 weight distribution, and oversteer balanced suspension and you're going to have a car that should be pointed in a straight line before it's let off of the leash.

We all use our cars differently. A lot of these discussions are based on what owner's like to do with their car. If I absolutely HAD to have 300+ hp in an S I'd probably go with a supercharger for the greater low end boost and more linear power delivery. Even if it's slightly slower in a straight line it would be more fun (and safer) to drive overall.

I don't have proof but it seems impossible that an 11:1 motor can take 7 psi or more of boost without considerable retarding of the timing. Especially on 92 octane pump gas. I hand built a turbo motor with 8:1 compression and it still needed a big timing change under boost plus water/alcohol injection.

Last edited by backusstudio; 01-10-2011 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Switchblade View Post
Is that HAVE a big weenie or ARE a big weenie?
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by backusstudio View Post
The K20 and K22 are good strong motors. But on top of the compression issue, and the waste of money issue, there's one more very good point about slapping a turbo on these puppies.

With the high revving nature of these engines and the VTEK 'kick' it can make the S a handful in corners. We all know about the car's tendency to break the rear end loose suddenly. If you've ever had VTEK kick in one of the three lower gears while cornering hard you know it's not the best idea.

Turbo heads (I've not only known a few, I've been one) would say that a turbo 'compliments' the S2000 power curve. In other words a turbo makes it's power in the same way, at the top end. I say that a turbo aggravates the S power curve, making more power where it is not really needed and doing very little down lower in the rpm range where it is.

Most people don't think that the power delivery of an engine affects the car's handling. I believe that it does. Trying to come out of a corner with a motor that is coming up on VTEK and turbo boost at the same time is not going to be the party you might expect. Add in short wheelbase, 50/50 weight distribution, and oversteer balanced suspension and you're going to have a car that should be pointed in a straight line before it's let off of the leash.

We all use our cars differently. A lot of these discussions are based on what owner's like to do with their car. If I absolutely HAD to have 300+ hp in an S I'd probably go with a supercharger for the greater low end boost and more linear power delivery. Even if it's slightly slower in a straight line it would be more fun (and safer) to drive overall.

I don't have proof but it seems impossible that an 11:1 motor can take 7 psi or more of boost without considerable retarding of the timing. Especially on 92 octane pump gas. I hand built a turbo motor with 8:1 compression and it still needed a big timing change under boost plus water/alcohol injection.
Nice write up but it's "VTEC". Like this:
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Switchblade View Post
Nice write up but it's "VTEC"
That's what I wrote. I don't know what's wrong with your copy.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:04 AM
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First off I wanna say thanks everyone for the input it helped alot and I got everything for 100 dollars im thinking about selling the turbo and the supercharger I have sitting in my room and I'll just buy a Crx or a hatch and make a project track car out of that. Cause I did the math and if I got just the bottom brand it would cost me about 3 grand to have it up and running but I'd rather not destroy my car lol
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by backusstudio View Post
The K20 and K22 are good strong motors. But on top of the compression issue, and the waste of money issue, there's one more very good point about slapping a turbo on these puppies.

With the high revving nature of these engines and the VTEC 'kick' it can make the S a handful in corners. We all know about the car's tendency to break the rear end loose suddenly. If you've ever had VTEC kick in one of the three lower gears while cornering hard you know it's not the best idea.

Turbo heads (I've not only known a few, I've been one) would say that a turbo 'compliments' the S2000 power curve. In other words a turbo makes it's power in the same way, at the top end. I say that a turbo aggravates the S power curve, making more power where it is not really needed and doing very little down lower in the rpm range where it is.

Most people don't think that the power delivery of an engine affects the car's handling. I believe that it does. Trying to come out of a corner with a motor that is coming up on VTEC and turbo boost at the same time is not going to be the party you might expect. Add in short wheelbase, 50/50 weight distribution, and oversteer balanced suspension and you're going to have a car that should be pointed in a straight line before it's let off of the leash.

We all use our cars differently. A lot of these discussions are based on what owner's like to do with their car. If I absolutely HAD to have 300+ hp in an S I'd probably go with a supercharger for the greater low end boost and more linear power delivery. Even if it's slightly slower in a straight line it would be more fun (and safer) to drive overall.

I don't have proof but it seems impossible that an 11:1 motor can take 7 psi or more of boost without considerable retarding of the timing. Especially on 92 octane pump gas. I hand built a turbo motor with 8:1 compression and it still needed a big timing change under boost plus water/alcohol injection.
That totally depends on the size of turbo you get. Plus its not necessarily a waste of power if you live in vtec. You dont need power below 6K if you vtec everywhere you go. And if you dont do that now then why would you even want more power?

The sos supercharger add 7psi of boost with no ecu changes at all. The stage two adds 2psi and standalone ecu.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 0tyrael0 View Post
That totally depends on the size of turbo you get. Plus its not necessarily a waste of power if you live in vtec. You dont need power below 6K if you vtec everywhere you go. And if you dont do that now then why would you even want more power?

The sos supercharger add 7psi of boost with no ecu changes at all. The stage two adds 2psi and standalone ecu.
Tell me that the stock ecu doesn't have detonation detection and spark retard. Go ahead, tell me and I'll call you a liar.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Benw.17 View Post
Cause I did the math and if I got just the bottom brand it would cost me about 3 grand to have it up and running but I'd rather not destroy my car lol

and double that for replacement/spare/OS funds....

boosting on a budget aint gunna happen in this car.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by backusstudio View Post
Tell me that the stock ecu doesn't have detonation detection and spark retard. Go ahead, tell me and I'll call you a liar.
Well it does but its not adjustable (unless you have 06-09). I just thought you ment it needed to be adjusted.

Last edited by 0tyrael0; 01-13-2011 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by backusstudio View Post
Tell me that the stock ecu doesn't have detonation detection and spark retard. Go ahead, tell me and I'll call you a liar.
It does but what would be interesting to do is hook a obdII scan tool up to it and check knock count at 6 psi or less. This is all assuming your af is right on. You might be suprised at what you find. I run pretty aggressive timing uptop on my tune I think I am pulling less than 4 degrees at 9 psi. I will fire my laptop up and check tomorrow.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by s2000isu View Post
It does but what would be interesting to do is hook a obdII scan tool up to it and check knock count at 6 psi or less. This is all assuming your af is right on. You might be suprised at what you find. I run pretty aggressive timing uptop on my tune I think I am pulling less than 4 degrees at 9 psi. I will fire my laptop up and check tomorrow.
Yeah I doubt there is very much retard in the timing.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:18 PM
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4 degrees isn't much at all with those kinds of cylinder pressures. It's been a while since I read up on knock sensors and how aggressive the adjustments are. In the old school ignition set ups that used vacuum/boost diaphragms the advance swings were pretty big. Detonation was a major concern.

My main point to the OP is that a hodge podge of turbo bits isn't going to just bolt on and work correctly. The better kits that are engineered as a system seem to work pretty well. But that is not what he was dealing with.

My $10k budget includes building the engine for boost. I personally wouldn't pump a stock 11:1 motor up to 9 psi. I'm sure it's done all the time and people get away with it. I just wouldn't go that way myself.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:40 PM
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Yeah if I did boost I would go with the sos stage 2 and the thicker head gasket. Bumps the compression down to 9.5 i think. Good for 400whp
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:25 AM
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I have a boosted S2k, but if it was up to me i wouldnt turbo it... thats just my opinion.....pstt (too many problems)
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 0tyrael0 View Post
Well it does but its not adjustable (unless you have 08,09). I just thought you ment it needed to be adjusted.
The flashable ECU began with MY06, unless you are refering to something else that occured in MY08.
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Old 01-13-2011, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TTMartin View Post
The flashable ECU began with MY06, unless you are refering to something else that occured in MY08.
O your right dont know what I was thinking. Perhaps the drive by wire. Must have been tired. Editing...
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 0tyrael0 View Post
O your right dont know what I was thinking. Perhaps the drive by wire. Must have been tired. Editing...
MY06 has DBW too.
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by backusstudio View Post
The K20 and K22 are good strong motors. But on top of the compression issue, and the waste of money issue, there's one more very good point about slapping a turbo on these puppies.

With the high revving nature of these engines and the VTEC 'kick' it can make the S a handful in corners. We all know about the car's tendency to break the rear end loose suddenly. If you've ever had VTEC kick in one of the three lower gears while cornering hard you know it's not the best idea.

Turbo heads (I've not only known a few, I've been one) would say that a turbo 'compliments' the S2000 power curve. In other words a turbo makes it's power in the same way, at the top end. I say that a turbo aggravates the S power curve, making more power where it is not really needed and doing very little down lower in the rpm range where it is.

Most people don't think that the power delivery of an engine affects the car's handling. I believe that it does. Trying to come out of a corner with a motor that is coming up on VTEC and turbo boost at the same time is not going to be the party you might expect. Add in short wheelbase, 50/50 weight distribution, and oversteer balanced suspension and you're going to have a car that should be pointed in a straight line before it's let off of the leash.

We all use our cars differently. A lot of these discussions are based on what owner's like to do with their car. If I absolutely HAD to have 300+ hp in an S I'd probably go with a supercharger for the greater low end boost and more linear power delivery. Even if it's slightly slower in a straight line it would be more fun (and safer) to drive overall.

I don't have proof but it seems impossible that an 11:1 motor can take 7 psi or more of boost without considerable retarding of the timing. Especially on 92 octane pump gas. I hand built a turbo motor with 8:1 compression and it still needed a big timing change under boost plus water/alcohol injection.
I know that I'm jumping in late on this and the OP has already made his decision, but I just wanted to comment on the vtec 'kick-in' mentioned above. With my set-up, Hondata tuned, vtec is on at 4k rpm, and the transition is very smooth, and like ive mentioned before, it just goes faster and faster and faster. I suppose Vezna and GoM can comment on how it handles on the track, compared to a stock S that has the vtec 'kick-in'.

Also, from what ive heard, turbo will change the characteristics of the S, making better low end tq than sc would, whereas the sc has the same characteristics making more power as you get higher rpms. According to my dyno sheet, i dont get to 8psi until around 7.8k rpm.
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Old 03-16-2011, 01:59 PM
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i would say leave it alone. I have a turbo accord and since i have done that, i've been spending money on maintainence all the time. in my opinion, i would leave it stock and get a beater to fix up as you mentioned. good luck!
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sraccord01 View Post
i would say leave it alone. I have a turbo accord and since i have done that, i've been spending money on maintainence all the time. in my opinion, i would leave it stock and get a beater to fix up as you mentioned. good luck!
Exactly, you are right my friend

Buy, a STI or EVO to go turbo and keep them also in OEM form.

Do not turbo your S2k, leave it as stock as it can be....
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Old 03-29-2011, 05:22 PM
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Unless you don't change the high compression, boost will be fun, but HP will be limited.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Benw.17 View Post
Hey everyone i bought a turbo,oil feed line, and piping yesterday. i got it all for a really good price and i know i still need alot but before i start im just trying to figure out is it worth all the money im gonna need to put into this?

Originally Posted by Benw.17 View Post
Hey everyone i bought a turbo,oil feed line, and piping yesterday. i got it all for a really good price and i know i still need alot but before i start im just trying to figure out is it worth all the money im gonna need to put into this?
This is an old post I know but just wanted to throw this out there ; the S2000 is good candidate for boost. It's almost as if Honda was building the F20C with boost in mind with its forged internals and fuel return system. The only thing that goes against the rules of boost is its high compression .It really depends on what your budget is , power goals and knowledge. I traded my 2008 Z for an AP1 specifically because the cost to boost was insane compared to an S2000. Even if you planned on putting together your own kit on a 2007-2008 Z you would be looking at around 7k + whatever a shop would charge for installation and even then you would have to worry about a rod snapping . The s2ks require less with a turbo setup hence less cost mostly because there's only one turbo and exhaust manifold involved that and there's a lot more companies making these parts which means more competition and Lower prices. For example on the 07-08 Zs you have two options Greddy or GTM manifolds they were both 900 for the set, whereas you can find a manifold for an s2k for under 300. I'm saying this based on my last experience . If your willing to do your research and stay away from eBay turbos,waste gates , and bovs etc , and get a good EMS and put up with maintenance you'll be fine. I'm not saying it'll be next to nothing but certainly don't need to spend anything near 10k for a modestly boosted s2k especially if you do your own install and have it tuned by a reputable shop.
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