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'06 AP2 Hesitation

'06 AP2 Hesitation

Old 07-28-2014, 04:57 PM
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'06 AP2 Hesitation

I've been over at S2ki scouring posts and starting threads. No one over there can figure it out. There are multiple posts about s2ks with the same issue and none of them resolved. Here's a link to my post over there. http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1092...part-throttle/

The car has 5600 miles on it. I verified this because the dealer I bought it from had all the maintainance done at the dealer. I have full records. Anyway, at 2500 rpm I get a hesitation and at 3500 another. It between those rpm the power doesn't feel right. But there after the car sings and feels great. I've owned 4 other s2ks, this being my 1st drive by wire. I know how to drive them, how they feel when accelerating and all that good stuff. I unplugged and replugged the IAT sensor one day and when I left I got a p0113. IAT sensor code. I put in a known good one and reset the ECU and all is good. Hiesitation went away from about 100 miles then it came back. No CELs. I think the ECU reset cured the problem for a short while. Anyone have any ideas over here?
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:19 PM
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A couple of things that are just a guess...

Have you checked the MAP sensor?

Have you removed the throttle body and cleaned it really well?
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mlc View Post
A couple of things that are just a guess...

Have you checked the MAP sensor?

Have you removed the throttle body and cleaned it really well?
I've cleaned the throttle body. I've done a visual inspection of the MAP sensor. It all still looks new. I unplugged it, took it out and cleaned it with MAF sensor cleaner spray from CRC. I have a multi-meter. Is there a way to check it with that?
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:11 AM
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Sounds like a "drive by wire" gremlin ...
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:34 AM
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what gear are you in when you experience this hesitation? the F22 DBW really does not perform under 3000 RPM, maybe 4000 RPM. if you go WOT at 2500 RPM in 2nd gear, don't expect to get pushed back in the seat.

if your car bogs at 2500 in first gear, smooths out and then bogs again at 3500, i would say you have a problem. gotta keep those RPM up if you want the S2000 to be a hot rod. it's not a real ball of fire at the low end of the tach. remember, it's got no torque.

the S2000 is just another honda below 5000 RPM, however, it should never bog if you are in the correct gear at the correct RPM.

the A/C will cause a small, but noticeable loss of power, especially at the lower range of the tachometer.

i know you know this if you are on your fifth S2000.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:08 AM
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"I recently purchased a 2006 formula red ap2 with 5300 miles on it. There is a slight sort of jerk hesitation between 2-3k rpm."

^^ is a quote from the first poster in the thread you linked.

i drove around a bit this morning trying to resolve your problem. i accelerated to 2500 RPM and then went WOT. 1st gear was the only gear that responded. in 2nd or 3rd a move to WOT from 2500 didn't cause hesitation so much as a feeling of lugging the engine until it built up a few revs.

how can you tell if you have a hesitation between 2000 and 3000 RPM? when you come off of the line you should be spinning at least 2000-2500 RPM when the clutch is fully engaged. are you bogging every time you start off in first gear? 2000-3000 is not a place on the tach you want to be hanging around. cruising, bebopping at 3000 RPM? maybe. once you pass 2000 RPM in first, you should not see that spot on the tach again until you start from a stop again.

if you are trying to start off at too low an RPM you will feel the dreaded death shudder and probably will bog down.

the F20 and the F22 want to rev. they are not meant to be driven at low RPM. the car does not need to be babied. gotta to get a little foot into it.
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:46 PM
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I do appreciate the replies. I'm sure everyone here when driving normally lets the clutch out and just accelerates leisurely out of 1st and 2nd gear. No need to rev really high. Not asking much of the engine. Just pulling away normally like everyone else on the road. Well when doing this i can feel the engine let up for a bit. It feels like letting of the accelerator for a split second and then pressing it in again. I've owned 5 s2000s. I know where the torque is and I know how to drives these cars. It feels like a fueling issue is all. I never go full throttle at 2k rpm. There's no point. It'll pull the same as part throttle down that low. And to people who say there's no torque down low, you're right there isn't, but if we had to rev to 4k every time we took off I feel sorry for the people in 100 hp cars like regular old civics and say mitsu mirage. They must have to rev to 6k to get going if that were the case. It is a hesitation that isn't normal. Has nothing to do with bogging down, being too low in the rpms or driver error or anything of that nature. Seems to be fueling, possible sensor malfunction, maybe oxygen sensor is whack. Unfortunately there is no CEL so feels like i'm chasing a ghost. Many people have the same issue as me with their DBW s2000s. The main thing is, it is intermittent. Happens maybe once out of every 5-10 stoplights. I think I have to buy a flash pro and data log whats happening. That'll surely tell me whats going on. Anyone have one for sale? BTW when i'm WOT above 4k rpm there is no sign of any problems. She blasts off quicker than any of my ap1s. Gotta love that gearing and that mid range bump. Just feels weird hitting only 75~ at the top of 3rd. My ap1 hit 90.

Last edited by kikkomon; 07-29-2014 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:28 PM
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This isn't very helpful but I know exactly what you mean. My AP2 did the same thing, it felt like the throttle was completely pulled for a split second just after taking off, it was the freakiest sensation. I really have no advice but wanted to confirm that it is not just in your head. My car was also an 06.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Marioshi View Post
This isn't very helpful but I know exactly what you mean. My AP2 did the same thing, it felt like the throttle was completely pulled for a split second just after taking off, it was the freakiest sensation. I really have no advice but wanted to confirm that it is not just in your head. My car was also an 06.
Yeah, there are multiple threads on S2ki about the same issue. Every thread has the same replies oddly enough. Bogging, clutch engagement, no torque, all of which don't really apply. There's gotta be someone who's had this issue and fixed it. Chime in and spread the love!
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:16 PM
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I had that issue in '08 ....I never mentioned it cuz I thought I had a fouled plug.i replaced all the plugs & it has never happened again.btw, my stewie is also an. 06
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:18 PM
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Btw,what the hell is wrong with you & "this is my 5th s2k"???
Remind me to never buy a car from you....ever
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Old 08-01-2014, 12:55 PM
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If the hesitation is for a split second, say half a second, that's normal for an AP2. If you're at lower rpm in first or second and go to wot, the AP2 will hesitate for a split second and then pull normally. It's the clutch delay valve doing it's job to preserve the diff. AP1's don't have it, only AP2's. It was noticeable enough on mine to make me think I had an engine/fuel delivery issue.
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Old 08-01-2014, 04:24 PM
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I have an '07 where I experience the same thing intermittently. I have found that it usually occurs when it is hot outside. But that is just an observation. Nothing concrete.
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Old 08-01-2014, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kikkomon View Post
And to people who say there's no torque down low, you're right there isn't, but if we had to rev to 4k every time we took off I feel sorry for the people in 100 hp cars like regular old civics and say mitsu mirage. They must have to rev to 6k to get going if that were the case.
i'm not even sure anymore that you have an S2000, much less have had five of them. You seem to be unfamiliar with the car. the F22 of which you say hesitates needs to be revved. it is not a 389 cubic inch GTO engine with power down low. you got to make RPM to go anywhere.

if you start from a stop in first gear and wind to 3000, when you shift to second you will be pulling about 2000 RPM. there is nothing to be had there. second (or any gear except first) has got to have more RPM.

if you are ditty bopping around at the lower end of the tach don't expect much. the car needs RPM to do what it does.

all engines are different and need to be driven with how the engine performs in mind. my old air-cooled VWs had to be revved and you had to keep the RPM up. 1st gear was good for 15 mph, 20 if you stood on it. 2nd was good up to 30, 35 if need be. 3rd was good for 45-50, and 4th gear after that. anything less and you would lug the engine and starve it of air from the cooling fan. lugging a bug was asking to blow a motor.

this is a textbook AP2 graph from a dyno run:

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please note that at 2000 RPM you are making about 25 hp. at 3000 RPM about 75. i still don't see how you can feel a hesitation between 2000 and 3000. at 5000 you finally have 125 hp and a sensation of speed and quickness. you have got to spin it--it was made to run at high RPM.

my work is done here.

bb
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Old 08-03-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bbcricketta View Post
i'm not even sure anymore that you have an S2000, much less have had five of them. You seem to be unfamiliar with the car. the F22 of which you say hesitates needs to be revved. it is not a 389 cubic inch GTO engine with power down low. you got to make RPM to go anywhere.

if you start from a stop in first gear and wind to 3000, when you shift to second you will be pulling about 2000 RPM. there is nothing to be had there. second (or any gear except first) has got to have more RPM.

if you are ditty bopping around at the lower end of the tach don't expect much. the car needs RPM to do what it does.

all engines are different and need to be driven with how the engine performs in mind. my old air-cooled VWs had to be revved and you had to keep the RPM up. 1st gear was good for 15 mph, 20 if you stood on it. 2nd was good up to 30, 35 if need be. 3rd was good for 45-50, and 4th gear after that. anything less and you would lug the engine and starve it of air from the cooling fan. lugging a bug was asking to blow a motor.

this is a textbook AP2 graph from a dyno run:



please note that at 2000 RPM you are making about 25 hp. at 3000 RPM about 75. i still don't see how you can feel a hesitation between 2000 and 3000. at 5000 you finally have 125 hp and a sensation of speed and quickness. you have got to spin it--it was made to run at high RPM.

my work is done here.

bb
I really appreciate the reply, but seriously, you are way off track. Does it take 240 hp to move from a stand still? No, it takes very little. It is an obvious hesitation that if you had it happening to you, you'd know what I mean. A person in an automatic can lift off the break without applying gas and the car will move. You can do the same in the s2000 if you modulate the cluth. How much horsepower do you think its producing at idle? Nothing but the car moves. A guy on the other forum where I posted says he solved the same issue replacing the pedal position sensor. A lot of people have the same problem. Go over to the link I provided up top and read. It exists whether you think I know what i'm talking about or not. But seriously, I really do appreciate the input whether it pertains or not.

Last edited by kikkomon; 08-03-2014 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RealJoKeR View Post
I had that issue in '08 ....I never mentioned it cuz I thought I had a fouled plug.i replaced all the plugs & it has never happened again.btw, my stewie is also an. 06
Plugs are cheap, I'll give that a try. I haven't yet but I do plan on getting a flash pro to data log what's happening. With just 6k miles on the odometer I don't see how it would have fouled a plug but it's worth a try. I went to the East Coast Honda Meet and that damn hesitation was driving me up a wall. Sometimes it would pull smoothly all the way up. Frankly, the torque above 3k on this ap2 is surprising compared to my AP1. But sometimes I get the hesitation around 3.5-4.5k and it's so obvious there. The one that happens at 2.5 k is obvious as well. It's feels like someone abruptly shuts the throttle and then presses it in again. You guys try it. Ride at 2.5k rpm and let off the throttle fast and reapply. Tell me if you feel it happening lol.
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Old 08-03-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RealJoKeR View Post
Btw,what the hell is wrong with you & "this is my 5th s2k"???
Remind me to never buy a car from you....ever
None of my stewies had any issues whatsoever. Everytime I sold one it was to buy another car. Then I would sell that car because I missed me S and buy another. I'm not doing that again until a new s2k comes out. Mid engine v6? O YEAH. My cars in between s2ks were, a lotus elise, 370z nismo. Except when I sold my 1st ap1. I waited a year or so and bought an '05. It had a notchy *** tranny so I traded it for an '03.

Last edited by kikkomon; 08-03-2014 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 03:45 PM
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My 07 has done this a few times in the 18 or so months I have had it. I have always attributed it to having done too much lugging around town. Unfortunately where I live I get few opportunities to really open it up so most of my driving is relatively low speed, low throttle opening driving. For me a quick blast cleared everything out.


Having only 6k on the car is no guarantee of it being perfect, in fact, you have to consider how much the car has just sat with things like seals deteriorating. For instance, after a week almost all the oil on the cam lobes have drained off leading to several "dry" revolutions on engine start.


It will be interesting to hear about what your plugs look like.
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cdk456 View Post
My 07 has done this a few times in the 18 or so months I have had it. I have always attributed it to having done too much lugging around town. Unfortunately where I live I get few opportunities to really open it up so most of my driving is relatively low speed, low throttle opening driving. For me a quick blast cleared everything out.


Having only 6k on the car is no guarantee of it being perfect, in fact, you have to consider how much the car has just sat with things like seals deteriorating. For instance, after a week almost all the oil on the cam lobes have drained off leading to several "dry" revolutions on engine start.


It will be interesting to hear about what your plugs look like.
LOL, i'm going outside right now and pulling the plugs. Taking pictures and posting, be back in a few.
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:03 PM
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Here's plug 1 and plug 2. Was getting dark and I was getting hot so I stopped there. The plugs look fine to me as well.
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Phone pics rock.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:36 PM
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Found another thread, same problem.

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/6043...#entry13623687


here's a link to the thread I posted at the beginning of this thread.

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...rt-throttle%2F


Seems a lot of these guys think it's a fueling issue which honda never fixed. Mainly '06-'07


Here's other people mentioning it. 4th page of this flashpro thread. You see, it's common place in the '06-'07 models.
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/7378...o/page__st__75

Last edited by kikkomon; 08-03-2014 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:21 AM
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Your plugs look perfect. However, there has to be something wrong specifically with your car since this is not happening to everyone else to the same degree you are seeing it. The problem with cars today is that they are engineered so closely to eliminate pollution output that it only takes some little thing being slightly off to throw everything out of wack.


Since your car is not throwing any codes the problem has to be minor. While I hate throwing cash at a problem, a set of plugs is a cheap route to go.
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Old 08-05-2014, 06:22 PM
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Old 08-14-2014, 06:50 AM
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http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/7906...pm-hesisation/

Looks like the diagnosis and cure for this issue.
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Old 08-14-2014, 08:35 AM
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http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/7906...pm-hesisation/

Looks like the diagnosis and cure for this issue.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:50 AM
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Hmmm....looks like nothing new was discussed in the link except for the op who posted the dyno graph and talked about the flashpro. Fwiw, I had my 08 for almost 5 years and the car was bone stock except for a drop in K & N filter. The only trouble it ever gave me was a 02 sensor that was replaced under warranty (it threw a cel). I never experienced any hesitation except the cdv or heat soak. I wish Honda would build something similar to the S and I would be first in line.

ps: preferably a coupe, Honda.

Last edited by Glenn1; 08-14-2014 at 09:52 AM. Reason: smiles....:)
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Glenn1 View Post
Hmmm....looks like nothing new was discussed in the link except for the op who posted the dyno graph and talked about the flashpro. Fwiw, I had my 08 for almost 5 years and the car was bone stock except for a drop in K & N filter. The only trouble it ever gave me was a 02 sensor that was replaced under warranty (it threw a cel). I never experienced any hesitation except the cdv or heat soak. I wish Honda would build something similar to the S and I would be first in line.

ps: preferably a coupe, Honda.
Apparently there is an s2000 mid engine car possibly coming out in 2017. Possible 350 hp v6. Personally I vote for a turbo inline 4 mid engine at 300 hp 300 ft/lbs.
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:50 PM
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I was able to get my 07 running smooth by cleaning the seal on the MAP sensor. It had some grit on it so I suspect there was a pressure leak which "changed" the readings; especially at the point between accelerating and decelerating.

In my case, the hesitation was most noticeable when trying to maintain constant velocity (that point where the throttle is between accelerating and decelerating) and the RPMs were about 3500. At that point, the car felt like it could not decide what to do. I reset the ECU and that did not have an effect. At one point it even threw an engine code. Did not write it down, but was attributed to the throttle pedal position sensor giving bad data. Local Honda dealership ran ECU tests on it for 1 hour and charged me $100. No solution there.

On a whim (after reading these posts), decided to remove the MAP sensor and clean the seal. When I felt grit on the seal, I gave it a good cleaning, re-installed the sensor and drove the car. Immediately noticed an improvement. That was 4 days ago. So far so good! The car has not been this smooth for a long time (years). Guess I had convinced myself that the hesitation was just a part of how this powerful engine works.
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